October 8, 2006
The Beginning of the End of the American Republic
What a Terrorist Incident in Ancient Rome Can Teach Us, by Robert Harris
The ancient rights and liberties of the individual are being surrendered in the United States in the wake of 9/11. The vote by the Senate on Thursday to suspend the right of habeas corpus for terrorism detainees, denying them their right to challenge their detention in court; the careful wording about torture, which forbids only the inducement of “serious” physical and mental suffering to obtain information; the admissibility of evidence obtained in the United States without a search warrant; the licensing of the president to declare a legal resident of the United States an enemy combatant — all this represents an historic shift in the balance of power between the citizen and the executive.
Maintain US Dollar short positions.
October 8th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
And I applaud the Sentate for treating the terriorist thugs like the criminals they are. They are not prisioners of war but slim that hates what we stand for. What ever it takes to protect America, and not show sympathy to the ones who love to destroy this country. Looking out for America first and not the rights of terriorist.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
We should treat those dogs like the dogs they are
October 8th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
The Fasco-Muslims will disappear in the next 20 years when India finally attacks Pakistan with a Nuke …. all hell will break loose with Muslims invading India and the Chinese and US will laugh all the way to the bank
October 9th, 2006 at 12:20 am
I have nothing against prosecuting and bringing terrorists to justice but the fact that American’s are being brainwashed or blindly willing to trade their freedoms for a little bit of security scares me.
I’m willing to bet that in a few years ordinary US citizens will be secretly labeled as terrorists by the government for whatever reason. Then what? Forget your rights. Own a gun? Maybe you’re really a terrorist. Own a blog and write your mind about the US government. You might be a terrorist by spreading anti-US propoganda. Let’s reinterpret the Bill of Rights. IS this far fetched? Look at what’s happened in the last 6 years and then decide.
“Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither” - Ben Franklin
October 9th, 2006 at 1:06 am
another liberal who looks for excuses to hurt our great country to give terriorist rights.
Sad
October 9th, 2006 at 1:51 am
Maintain US dollar short positions? Have you read the headlines out of Moscow lately? Asia?
Currencies are relative, and relative to the rest of the world we are holding our own.
October 9th, 2006 at 4:35 am
To look out for America is to look out for the principles on which it was founded. Due process of law and certain guaranteed rights are cornerstones of those principles. To encourage the abatement of those rights is an un-American act. To defend them is patriotic.
Try looking at what’s going on without sorting things under the header of either “liberal” or “conservative,” because what’s happening in our nation is more subtle and complicated than that.
It really would be hyperbole to compare the situation here to Rome’s change from a Republic to an Empire, but there’s certainly a danger of the jist becoming true.
October 9th, 2006 at 8:22 am
The only conceivable way to protect the normal citizen is to require due process of law for all detained or arrested persons. If a man is “slime” as Paul says, it should be easily proven to a judge and jury. Any treatment that circumvents habeas corpus, speedy and public trial, or trial by jury of ones peers is an abomination of the civilized principles by which we live. In other words you’re losing the country you love if you let Bush do these things to “protect” it.
A great book on America’s current events is _Dark Ages America_ by Morris Berman. It carries a similar theme to the article linked.
October 9th, 2006 at 8:49 am
Americans yes I agree, they are granted all rights - non americans NO you do not have the rights of an american citizen. If a phone call comes in from the middle east to a non american citzen then we better be listening to protect the LIVES of americans. Terriorist will use our rights to their advantages to destroy us. Its a shame that people spend more time defending non-citzens rights instead of how can we defend safety Americans against an enemy we cant see. I dont like Bush but I 100% beleive he is trying to defend americans and not take our rights.
October 9th, 2006 at 8:52 am
and for books - I use my own judgements, not a right wing author or a left author - they have an agenda and will push their beleifs. Anyone can write a book pushing any agenda.
October 9th, 2006 at 9:02 am
By the standards of Amnesty International, we are now a ‘fascist’ nation, ‘good, old-fashioned, 1930’s style fascism’ see this link and its link to AI url:
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/callahan/callahan160.html)
Hopefully many court challenges will follow…or more will become expatriatees.
October 9th, 2006 at 9:05 am
last post on this - if u dont like the country then leave. To spend more time sticking up for non-americans or terrriours “rights” is a shame. Our government is to do what they can to keep us safe period. I will be damned if my family is going to be harmed because we are “worried” about the rights of non american citzens. I was on the fence about my vote in November but u made it easy.
October 9th, 2006 at 10:39 am
did lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus herald the end of the the republic at that time? early call
October 9th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Alas, it is too often forgotten that most terrorists in America are Americans, and that most of the “enemy combatants” were neither terrorists nor dangerous when they were captured.
October 9th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
Its a shame that I see people so against the US but never a negitive word said about IRAN, North Korea, Syria, Venazelua or even Russia and China. I am a 40 year mother of 3 and go to work every day, take my kids to school and travel on my free time. Not once have I seen my freedoms taken or the world around me become “fascist” or headed to an “empire” The US is not perfect but the GREATEST country on this land. Our goverment’s number 1 priority is to protect its people and country - which they do better then any other country. Go live in the six countries I have mentioned and then complain to me about freedoms. My children mean more to me then anyting and after seeing N. Korea testing Nukes, I amd soooo glad our goverment is taken step to protect us and will fight these agressive nations that seek harm. Its sad to see people more interested in protecting those that seek to hurt us instead of more interested in the 300 million americans who live here. I could not imagine losing a child because we let a terriorist go because he has rights or we couldnt listen to his phone call from Iran. God bless the US. And for those of u that detest it, I am sorry your life is so miserable.
October 9th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
You will see below that the terrorists in question, those who are referred to in the part of the recent Senate legislation that pertains to habeas corpus, are not American citizens (American citizens yet enjoy full constitutional rights, as we shall see). Nor are the terrorists in question “people of the United States” (people of the United States are a broader class than citizens and they yet enjoy full constitutional rights, as we shall see). Rather, the terrorists who are referred to in the Senate legislation are foreign terrorists, aliens. And, they are not losing any rights that they ever had. Basically it’s the other way around. They are gaining rights that they never had.
At no time have foreign enemies of the United States enjoyed the right of habeas corpus. This Harris article seems to be a matter of a foreign journalist of some kind, an ass at that, not consulting with an American constitutional lawyer before interpreting the Senate’s action.
Take a look at the official Senate summary of the meaning of the Senate legislation by our own homegrown terrorists, the Democratic party leadership:
http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=lb-109-2-145. Even they couldn’t muster up the gall to claim that habeas corpus was being suspended for people of the United States or for citizens. However, upon first reading you could reasonably assume that someone had his habeas corpus rights taken away.
Note especially the following paragraph by the Democrats:
“Habeas Corpus matters. S. 3930 would amend the Habeas Corpus provisions of the United States Code to strip U.S. courts of jurisdiction to hear or consider a writ of habeas corpus (petition to seek release from unlawful detention) by or on the behalf of an alien detained by the U.S. who has been determined by the U.S. to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.”
Note they have at least admitted to the legislation’s limited applicability with regard to habeas corpus, to alien enemies. Now, having understood from that that the law doesn’t affect citizens of the US or people of the US, perhaps you yet suppose that the US Code is being modified to strip away a right to habeas corpus that alien enemies formerly had.
But no. You have to read it carefully with understanding and know the situation. The situation is that we have these loony, left-wing Federal judges (none of whom stand for election), such as those who are left over from Jimmy Carter’s administration, who lately have been seizing power from the Congress and from the President. They threaten to give new rights to alien enemies of the US. They threaten to cause CIA and Defense Department staff to be hauled off to prison for violating rights that they, the Federal judges, have made up for alien enemies of the US.
Thus this legislation is best seen as a declaration from Congress and the President to the effect that the treatment of alien enemies of the US will be pretty much a matter of business as usual, thank you. That’s all that this is about, not that it isn’t a lot. It strips away from Federal jurists powers that they never had (such as to extend habeas corpus to alien enemies) that some of them would gladly assume, the Constitution notwithstanding.
The failure of the Democrats to admit to and explain all of this (they insinuate that alien enemies of the US are losing a right to habeas corpus that they formerly had) is deliberate– it’s intended to be good enough to fool young college-educated liberals who are too lazy to go on the Internet and learn the existing law.
The latter can be counted upon to just assume that it means that Americans are losing the right to habeas corpus because of the Republicans. Why not? Isn’t the New York Times helping to delude them with this story that simply says that the vote by the Senate on Thursday was to “suspend the right of habeas corpus for terrorism detainees” (with no explanation being given of the fact that the terrorism detainees must be alien enemies to be affected, or of the fact that it’s the powers of the Federal courts that are curtailed– powers that they don’t actually have in the first place)?
When numbers of diehard German Nazi soldiers took off their uniforms after the fall of Germany in 1945 and kept fighting a guerrilla war against the occupiers, they were simply field executed upon capture. The current Senate legislation draws a careful distinction between such “unlawful enemy combatants” and others who remain subject to the terms of the Geneva Convention. And for whatever reason, it affords such unlawful enemy combatant captives a trial before a tribunal. Thus it does the opposite of what Harris generally claims: it gives enemy aliens new rights.
By the way, the only mention of habeas corpus in the US Constitution is in Article I, Section 9:
“The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”
Since the Privilege has not by the Senate action been suspended for anyone who had it in the first place, no part of the Constitution is actually directly applicable to the present matter. The Constitution, by the way, assumes sanity and normalcy on the part of all who read it. A discussion of the Section 9 clause appears on http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article01/46.html#1 .
England, by the way, lacks a constitution. The “rights of Englishmen” formerly included the right to keep and bear arms. But by a process of incrementalism that natural right was taken away. Mr. Harris should stay closer to home.
October 9th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
@ Ann Brown:
First, it’s “negative” not “negitive.”
Second, watch Fox on Saturday morning’s “cost of freedom block” - it’s right up your alley, nothing negative (or even “negitive”) about the U.S. and nothing positive about any other nation.
Third, if you claim to love the U.S. for its freedom, why do you want people enjoying those freedoms to leave?
Fourth, if the U.S. does a better job of protecting its people than any other country does, could you tell me the last time France, Switzerland, or the U.K. had thousands of their citizens killed in a terrorist attack?
Regards -
October 9th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Bill - Again you have nothing negiative to say about the six countries I mentioned - Iran, Venz, syria, N. Korea, China and Russia - Try living in those countries and posting something negative about there governments on a blog. And then tell me if you then feel comfortable waking down the street like u do here in America. What freedoms have u lost??? Go live there - I dare you.
We are attacked for our stance on freedom. These nut cases are trying to make a statement and attacking France is not a statement. France is weak, I guess u forget we saved there freedoms in war war II.
UK never had a terriost attack? News to me.
And to go after my spelling - dont have time to spell check at 1:00 AM - then again since you have so much hate for Amercia and your points are so weak then u must attack something.
Again if u think its soo much better somewhere else then leave - noone is stopping you. You really need some help.
October 9th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
I’m getting this error when responding.
“Precondition Failed
The precondition on the request for the URL /wp-comments-post.php evaluated to false.”
October 9th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
More accurately, getting the above error when attempting to respond. The response was not getting through. However, for some reason this post is. Fascinating.
October 10th, 2006 at 2:26 am
Ann,
If the United States saved France’s freedom in World War II, it was merely the repayment of a long-standing debt of gratitude. Without the aid of France, it’s unlikely there ever would have been a United States of America. Don’t forget it was the intervention of the French fleet that blocked Cornwallis’ evacuation and forced him to surrender to George Washington, sealing our victory in the Revolution.
As for the countries you mention, they all suffer from a lack of liberties. The main point of those in America who say “enough” is that we want to avoid heading down that same road. Unlimited wiretapping, screening of e-mails, paying off those in the media to present a certain message, those are the sort of things you find in North Korea, they shouldn’t happen here.
October 10th, 2006 at 2:57 am
Yes, the UK had plenty of terrorist attacks, most of them perpetrated by Irish terrorists. And none where as bad (including the recent subway bombings by British citizens) as the Oklahoma City attack, which is only one of many wholesome all-American terrorist attacks. Do I have to say Washington Sniper? Unabomber? Anthrax? Atlanta Olympics?
Make no mistake, the US still ranks high on the list of “good” countries. However, it has started to slip, and the recent increase in foreign terrorism epitomized by the 9/11 attacks is as much a consequence of this as a cause. Attacking a foreign country for phony reasons and disrespecting international law about detention and torture has not helped. Not to mention disrespect of an entire religion.
At this point, America still stands strong in the world with a good number of allies. This will not last forever, and it may take only a few more bungling and arrogant administrations to find ourselves alone in the world, with only our mighty military and nuclear arsenal to keep us from being overrun. That’s when it’s time to short the Dollar and leave the country.
October 10th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
Bill: Sometimes the spam filter gets nervous about someone, especially if they post a URL in the comment, and will give you that error. Let me know via email if your comments begin to get blocked regularly.
October 10th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
“I guess u forget we saved there freedoms”.
Ann,
That should read “their”. Note that “there” has “here” buried inside it to remind you it refers to place, while “their” has “heir” buried in it to remind you that it has to do with possession.
Once the spelling gets sorted, we can tackle your peculiar mixture of naivete and pomposity.
Regards
October 10th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
The Republic died a long time ago and gave way to the Military-Industrial Complex. The terrorist threat is much smaller than the Government leads people to believe and it will never be dealt with by military means.
“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.” - Eisenhower’s Farewell Address to the Nation
January 17, 1961
October 12th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
@ Mao: no url that I can remember.
@ Jazzy: I would never condone torture. If you accept the principle that the many can sacrifice the one to their desires, UNDER EVEN THE MOST EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES, you have accepted that principle and must follow it to its logical conclusion, which is statism.
You start a slippery slope. Today, it’s “to save the lives of millions.” In twenty years, it’ll be “to find who stole the Captain’s radio.”
Principles are principles, or at least, they should be.
:-)
October 13th, 2006 at 11:57 am
Jazzy: That is not what is happening. Most who were mistreated were little people who didn’t know squat. Some likely not involved in terrorism at all. In a “war”, after all, you cannot be bothered with those pesky procedures meant to weed out the innocent.
If there was a bomb hidden in a major US city, would you condone arresting and torturing YOU to find out where it is?
October 14th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Jazz, it is impossible to close and protect an open and free society. That’s like trying to make gravity go up. There is absolutely no point in diminishing the civil rights that thousands have died for in order to protect us from the terror du jour. I expect to have the right to challenge my government over the imprisonment and interrogation of any of my friends, and there is and never will be any danger clear and present enough to suspend that right. Or else what the hell are we protecting? If this country becomes a police state in the name of security then we have, by definition, lost. Not just in my view but in the very writings of the founding fathers who warned of all this 250 years ago.
October 16th, 2006 at 3:01 am
The Chairman mentions terrorism and the readership apparently skyrockets.
October 16th, 2006 at 3:17 am
Todd-
its just a shame more people are interested in the “rights” of terriorist then the safety of Americans. You tell by how they love to bash American but never said a word about Iran, N. korea, syria, Venezuela Russia, China. And then when a nuke is planted in America it will be our fault they will celebrate.
October 16th, 2006 at 6:58 am
Consider this: the US laws are so out of wack that a small plane can legally fly in a NYC high-rise area and hit a building’s side with many people living inside, yet people are all removing shoes at airports.
Please stop and ask for a moment: who is the greater danger? And why is this so askew? In other words, whose interests is this serving?
And consider this: who gave Pakistan, that ’stable’ ally the nuke bomb? And whose interests is this serving - which is always a good question to ask.
October 16th, 2006 at 7:16 am
Wow BBC - you proved my point, you rather bash the US then the 6 countries I mentioned - Let me guess everthing wrong with those countries is our fault - and let me guess muslim nuts jobs are the cause of the US - I do hope the US is tapping the phones of those that hate the US and I thank god every day I live in US and not some other part of the world.
October 16th, 2006 at 9:27 am
Todd: The readerhip hasn’t soared (still a solid 12 regular reader), but this post has certainly brought out the comments.
October 16th, 2006 at 9:52 am
Paul: Nobody wants rights for terrorists. That should be obvious even to you. It is those who are wrongly accused of terrorism that need the protections which are being withheld. That could include you, one day. Especially if you are a weapons nut, of which there is a good chance given the tenor of your posts.
The six countries you keep mentioning should serve as examples of what to avoid, rather than as an excuse to become more like them. What is your point, anyway? “As long as things are much worse in Korea it is ok to restrict our freedom, too”?
October 16th, 2006 at 11:45 am
I bet if we all work together we can get this post up to 100 comments.
October 16th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Andreas:
News to me that our freedoms are being restricted - typical liberal talk with no substance - - Tell me what freedoms you have lost?? Again what freedoms have you lost!!! Stop watching CNN - damn u must be bored to come up with we are losing our freedoms. Why because airport security is tougher, GOOD - if u dont like it then use your freedom to protest it.
Now your wonderful quote “It is those who are wrongly accused of terrorism that need the
protections which are being withheld” Really like who - Do you see the nutty college professors spouting off that Bush caused 911 being thrown in jail or being accused of terrorism - you would think they would be prime canidates -
You act like they are pulling people out of American homes left and right -
In all walks of life people are wrongly accused and I am sure it has or will happen - But I know one fact that our interogations have saved lifes, americans lifes - that is a fact or are u worried that your terriorist friends are being mistreated because we played red hot chili peppers a little too loud or only let them sleep 4 hours a night while our soldiers get there heads cut off if captured.
October 16th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
BBC, “consider this”, nobody “gave” Pakistan “the nuke bomb” as you question rhetorically. They constructed it all by themselves (mostly as a counter to India) with their lead scientist on the project since having admitted to sharing his knowledge with other Islamic countries. Now, open mouth and remove foot.
Ugly: that was for you.
October 16th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Well, in hopes of getting up to 100 comments, here’s a contribution.
@ Paul: apparently “Ann” has grown a dick and a set of nuts, but apparently not a spell or grammar checker. How much are the “two of you” being paid by the GOPers to spam comments sections with your drivel?
Fucking troll.
October 16th, 2006 at 9:30 pm
Paul: The problem is that for the past 200 plus years the people of this great nation fought bitterly for individual freedoms and civil rights. I dont know what you think makes America the greatest nation on earth but I think that its the freedom. These freedoms are not handed by some benign government to us. They were won through bitter, bloody clashes with very powerful interests. And to have the government erode this progress in the name of security is a slippery slope down to totalitarianism. A wise man once said “Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither” it still rings true 200 years later now more then ever.
October 16th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
Bill - again your too stupid to come up with a point, ZERO - amazing how u have nothing to say about the 6 countries I mentioned, - so you attack and make up lies, like a typical liberal. But then again I feel sorry for you since your filled with so much hate, I guess being a loser will do that to you. Blaming others for your problems, waking up every morning miserable (like your friends the Muslim nuts) Maybe you should seek help let me know I can do anything for you.
Actually Ann, the head of our firm, is heavily involved in the GOP, which I am not, and when I passed this forum on to her I knew she would unload. But I will let her defend herself if she chooses. Amazing Bill how you attack her spelling but not her points.
Your a real tough guy with your cursing, I guess that shows your lack of education, but its what people do when they know they have no points. You need help son, but then again this is probably your social outlet.
This is my last post. You have all the last words you like, it will give you something to do with your time.
GOD BLESS THE USA - Freedom rules, and we have the freedoms now that we had 20, 30, 40 or even 100 years ago.
October 16th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
Last post? I doubt it. “Ann” isn’t the head of your firm, you and “Ann” are the same troll wearing different hats.
Where do you get your bullshit “talking points?” Is there a website for GOPers like to you to learn the “key phrases” such as “what about these six countries” and “name the freedoms you’ve lost” and “your friends the [insert choice of the following: muslim nuts or terrorists]”?
Or, instead of a website, do you get your instructions through an antenna in your head? Try wearing an aluminum foil cap, your thinking may clear.
I would attack your points, if you had made any. You’re simply a regurgitator. Sort of a “party line bulemic.” Here, eat some more “official crap” and then throw it up, but please do it on “official right-wing blog.”
I’ll bet that gets either you or some “other you” to follow up with another post …
Shooting for 100 comments, Ugly!
October 16th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
Oh, gratuitous followup.
My God blesses all countries and peoples. No exceptions. No favorites.
Did you realize that “love your enemies” kinda sorta implies not carpetbombing the fuck out of them?
October 16th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
I wonder what sort of firm that could be… ROFL :-D
October 16th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
On Pakistan, I stand corrected
October 17th, 2006 at 12:53 am
I would really like to know what you meant when you said that we have the same amount of freedom as 100 years ago. It seems to me that much has changed. What do you mean freedom is great? What does it mean to you? Come on everyone we can do it to 100!
November 29th, 2006 at 11:36 am
[…] ETF to Watch — Euro Currency Trust (FXE) The Beginning of the End of the American Republic The Boomers Will Sell Their Assets to Whom and at What Price? A Haven for Biomedical Freedom Buffett Cuts Dollar Short Just As Slide Set to Resume Nothing Can Save the US Dollar Trading with the Trend: US Dollar Index The US Dollar Resumes Its Slide […]